This may help some of you...

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This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:11 am

Okay, I have tried to start this a few times but just get rather jumbled and lost for proper explanation etc., but this is it in as much a nutshell as I can and still trying to be helpful to some of you guys who may be interested.
Some of you are familiar with me and or my lifting so you know I am a pretty good supporter of Dr John E. Sarno's stuff and how our emotional side of life effects our physical body. I have for over 20 years now put his philosophy to use in getting rid of quite a few niggles over the years, but as of late have experienced what many who know of his work have experienced, and that is, it does not always work, or does not work or get rid of certain pain(s).

I also know I will lose some or perhaps lots of the room with this post, but if ti helps just 1 of you guys, then I feel I have done more than keeping it to myself. Which there has been other somewhat bizarre things happen that have something making me tell this story.
I am sorry it is a bit long winded, but I feel I need to go into some details so some of you can get some understanding of what I am talking about.

About a year or so ago, I developed a pain in my left hip that was in the crease of my upper thigh joint. I developed a limp and was even jokingly called gimpy at work. It was very hard to put on socks, especially the left one, and tying shoes as well. Any pressure like going up stairs and leading with the left leg was quite painful. Of course what comes to mind is hip replacement surgery and or all the happy shit that goes along with it. At the same time, I would also have pain in my low back left side moreso and then pain on occasion shooting down into my knee. It just felt like a tooth ache. Very nagging at times, and sitting down was about the only thing that would give me some relief. At times it was quite intense and other times it was just there. I did all my Sarno thinking, but to no real avail, as it just lingered and would ache, especially at work standing all day or having to carry stuff upstairs. Bending over to get something off the floor was just pure agony if I had to go low enough.
Now while this was all happening, I still tried to keep up as much as I could with my lifting. Squatting became pretty tough to get any real depth and I ended up using a high box to help catch me some and still get in some light work. Deadlifting was also pretty painful, but it seemed at times, the more I would move and get moving, the better it would feel.
I had about guys who had success with Sarno's work but also had pain or problems in certain areas that were just very stubborn. That was me. I was what Monte Hueftle called "stuck". And being stuck does not let you get past the point or tension relief to get rid of your pain.

Where is my pain coming from?
The way I understand it is, that the body stores emotional tension when it does not have a way to get rid of it or understand it to a point where one is okay with it. ie: If my boss pisses me off, and I just am ready to scream at him, but bury the emotion and let it pass, the energy apparently goes to a large structure of the body. These places are almost always, hips, low back, knees, shoulders and neck. There really is science behind a tension headache, but many people, if they get a back spasm, instantly relate it to something in the area being physical. I won't waste a bunch of time getting into the formalities of all this. If people post and ask questions, I will answer them as absolutely as honestly as I can.

Cut to the chase to some extent...
I went thru the whole therapy thing and the blah blah how was your childhood this and that and although I could understand a great deal of it. The knowledge did not lessen my pain.
As Monte states it. It is what you are currently thinking, or I should say, how you currently react to things and how you think from more a learned sub-conscious level.
Example: Why am I a type A? Because I usually react or think about what is going to be happening in the next moment. I have always thought with a bit of anxiety attached to each thought. Like when you get a steak dinner and you are 3/4 of the way thru, your mind starts looking forward to the chocolate cake.
Okay, maybe that is a bit simplified, but you get my idea.

I am interested in relief, how do I get it?

It is pretty simple, but it can be a little tough (at least it was for me, but I don't like to sabotage anyone thinking system. You have to recognize when your are being like your old self. (the one that worries or invents scenarios that are bad or make you worry more, and stop thinking that way. You have to change your mind so to speak. Remember, it is only a thought, that makes us feel, the shit we feel. People may think it is a long old thought that has been with me, so how can OI just change it, but it is not a long old thought. It is just that you keep thinking that same way and it keeps getting reiterated over and over again in your sub conscious.
So, I started to change my thoughts. When shit happened to me at work, or when I caught myself feeling great pain or emotional problems from family. bills, etc. etc. I had to stop and catch myself, and switch my thoughts to more calm patterns or allow myself to feel all the way thru an angry moment. ie:
Why am I getting so angry here?
Is there a way to feel less angry about this?
What is really the worse outcome?
etc. etc. It seemed the more I did not bury the emotion or just swallow the anger, or have a temper tantrum (because having a tantrum is not always seeing the real side or where it is coming from) the less my pain stuck around. Or it actually would move to other parts of my body. My neck on occasion would have a knife in it and my jaw bone would lock so hard it felt like blood was running out of my ear. I would have a good day or 2, but then a day later would be in some real good pain again. This is what can get you "stuck". Since the pain is really distracting at times. However, even though I have/had these bad days, I keep redirecting my old thoughts that I used to think ( wow I am getting to old for this, I am in pain, I hate this feeling, this is depressing...) I switched my thinking over to better or less anxiety driven thoughts and the calm would actually relieve the pain. It is not nearly as intense as it was a few months ago and I can wash both my feet and upright myself without actually cringing or barking. I can get down on the floor and back up again without it taking 10 minutes. Most of all the lifts seem to be doing better as the pain is much less intense. I am not completely pain free "yet" but I am getting there. SUre at 58 I know I will have some creaky joints, but it is nothing like the TMS that was stuck in my brain.

Some other thoughts...

My neighbor is on her 4th knee operation because of pain. My barber on the other hand, tore or ruptured his upper bicep muscle and it knotted against his shoulder while he was moving a lawn mower. I asked him if it hurt. He said no, just felt a rip so to speak. Why is it that he has not pain from a biceps rupture, but my neighbor has had to go thru 4 operations to get rid of her knee pain?
If my barber went to the doctor moaning of arm pain, they would have instantly said, it is because you ruptured your bicep tendon.


I must say, I truly do not know where I would be right now if it wasn't for John E. Sarno, Monte Hueftle and maybe even Bruce Lipton.
I am not taking any pain meds, nor have I really. I seem to be able to endure more physical pain that I can emotional. For what ever that is worth.
Feel free to comment either negatively, positively, or any questions.
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby PierreSuter » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:27 am

Snake, regarding your hip injury, what do you mean by crease of the upper thigh, and did you ever get it checked out by a doc to see if something is torn?

Pain is an odd thing and no doubt has mental and emotional aspects to it. I know personally that stress and anxiety can literally become a pain in the neck (or back or wherever). I also think that if the pain is coming from a body part that's physically damaged, you need to repair it to get well regardless of your mind state.
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:02 am

PierreSuter wrote:Snake, regarding your hip injury, what do you mean by crease of the upper thigh, and did you ever get it checked out by a doc to see if something is torn?


Where the leg attaches to the pelvis, the pain is in front.
Oh and I forgot to mention, I had developed an almost tremor in the leg, when I would sit and put a little tension on it and it would shake uncontrollably while say ion the toilet. So nerve seemed to be effected as well. Of course that would explain pain going down into my knee or in my glute, as in sciatica and or piriformis syndrome.
The reason I had trouble with it being a tear was, that certain days it was not bad and other days it was quite bad. It seemed to escalate by what I had on my plate that day.
Another funny thing was the pain, did not always stay exactly in the same place. Which I thought was quite odd. No bruising or marks whatsoever.
I was quite afraid of seeing a doctor as it was not getting worse to the point where I was lame or could not walk at all.
I was also afraid, that is he saw something on an xray, he would tell me I needed a hip replacement. If that image got stuck in my mind, I was not sure how hard it would be then to keep the work up I was doing with the Sarno stuff!? A tough choice I know.


Pain is an odd thing and no doubt has mental and emotional aspects to it. I know personally that stress and anxiety can literally become a pain in the neck (or back or wherever).


Absolutely my experiences.

I also think that if the pain is coming from a body part that's physically damaged, you need to repair it to get well regardless of your mind state.


I can totally see your point here and this is what I had always wrestled with. Anytime I went to my chiropractor, he would tell me it was something physical, as it is pretty hard to find a doctor, that will tell you it isn't some sort of sprain or strain. That is just how they are trained and I do not fault them for that.
They pretty much keep the body and the mind separated. This gets a bit dicey, since Sarno's (or I should say more Hueftle's) work deals with getting rid of it being a physical entity.
When I think back about say straining my low back on a deadlift, it was a dull more or less all over an area ache that slowly eased in pain over a few days.
When TMS hit me, it was very painful or numbing or cringing pain at times and goes on and on for weeks or months, but not always specifically constant, like pressing on a broken bone or a cut. If I trained some, the blood flow usually made it feel better, which also explains the oxygen deprivation theory of TMS.
It is why I may the point of my barber's bicep tear. Why was there not much pain, when he tore it completely off?
I really wish I could tell people specifically how or why it works, but it is baffling to me. The only thing I can think of is that the mind, does not want to look at emotionally painful things, so it invents this strategy to focus on the pain in the body.
I guess the hardest thing with people and TMS, (from my understanding) is determining what course they want to take!?
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:37 am

Expounding more on when or why it might hit me...

I at times, have gone thru what is called the "vacation syndrome". That is, after a stint of hard or more appropriately tense or worrisome work, at the time of doing it, I felt fine no pain. But afterwards say a day or a few days or so, would wake up in the morning with a terrible neck pain that had me not being able to turn my head in a direction, that, or a spearing pain in the scapula like a knife in the back. (I know, I slept wrong on it!? huh?)
When I think back many times, going thru some kind of test period with stress or tension, had me finding myself in a physically painful afterbout.

My hip pain came right after a situation at work that had me almost dealing with an almost death of a customer. It is a long story that I won't go into, since it makes little difference of the venue, only that the pain slowly came on after the hard fought stress.
I know what some of you are thinking too, I do not have any stress or I deal with it just fine, so why would I have this pain? Well, apparently it is the people who can really cope, that bury this stress and tension in the body, only to have it surface as a physical entity.

About 6 months ago I was deadlifting (much lighter) but the stress of not being able to lift at all, was really prying my nerves, literally I suppose. All of a sudden I had this shooting pain on my right side back that just felt like a knot or a muscle just knotted against my spine. In my heart I knew it was not the correct side I had been having trouble with, so I sat down and calmed myself and kept reiterating that I need to not care about this lifting so much. To let go some and just have fun. Could I do that I thought!? I slowly got to a point where the back stopped aching, and I went ahead and put more weight on the bar and did the rest of the workout with the right side not hurting much at all. Did the injury, (if that's what it was, cramp!?) disappear? DO I mostly just have cramps/spasms that don't ever go away?
Is it mind over matter? I don't think it is that easy really, and no, I do not think this is mind over matter per se, as that thinking, does not move me into a new pattern. It is the old me, wishing or hoping for a new result but I am still focused on the physical body part.

Is it certain brain synapses that keep lighting the same patterns?
Maybe. I tend to think this may be some of the problem. We keep lighting those same paths to the same areas of the brain and having the same thoughts. Apparently when you think differently or even away from the anger, fear, or worry, you move your brains electricity to a newer or differing path and away from the old one. Lighting new paths of electricity in the brain, might have you redirecting your stress or tension to a level to see things better.
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby privateviking » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Interesting thread.

The Easterns always say the power is in the earth and the chi is in your hips. The energy goes up your spine. You have to be "centered" and "aligned" and your physical emotional states are strongly related.

If you have a kink in your back, hip or neck, it's easy to understand.

I've had back/hip issues myself. Also shoulder and neck stuff caused by my hips being crooked. Which can be caused by a flat foot? Any problem in the chain will cause more problems.

Anyway, while I was looking for ways to fix myself, I read some stuff by the Posture Restoration Institute. They were big on how your hips could get "twisted" into an abnormal position, and then stuck like that. This throws of your back and posture, and locks you into an extended position. They say this is the "flight position" like in running away. They said this altered your breathing, and even kept you in an elevated, highly stressed, like anxious,( almost catabolic even) state. Then your posture changes the way your lunges inflate, so your posture and breathing get worse.

I don't know, but I felt like shit all over, even mentally, when my hip was at its worst. I thought some of it was being upset at getting old and being weak, but who knows. It's all connected.
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby randygillett » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:39 pm

privateviking wrote:

I don't know, but I felt like shit all over, even mentally, when my hip was at its worst. I thought some of it was being upset at getting old and being weak, but who knows. It's all connected.


Years ago I heard Dr. Dean Edell talking about injury-based depression. He said it was nature's way of shutting you down so that you would be more likely to lay low and heal. It's like with overtraining-based depression and the ensuing loss of interest in training -- you're body trying to save you from yourself.
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:03 am

randygillett wrote:
privateviking wrote:

I don't know, but I felt like shit all over, even mentally, when my hip was at its worst. I thought some of it was being upset at getting old and being weak, but who knows. It's all connected.


Years ago I heard Dr. Dean Edell talking about injury-based depression. He said it was nature's way of shutting you down so that you would be more likely to lay low and heal. It's like with overtraining-based depression and the ensuing loss of interest in training -- you're body trying to save you from yourself.



I totally get this and believe me, I have thought this more than a few times. But what if it works in reverse?
It seems my body is well capable of doing this work, but my mind is weak, or as the TMS theory/science seems too point to, is that the mind is not wanting to deal with such a harsh emotional situation or the old sub conscious rituals it goes thru and then shuffles the emotional pain off onto the body, to get one to focus on the physical pain. Because the emotional stuff doesn't seem to have a relief system for being say a type A, or always trying to cope with being uneasy.
It also seems to me, the biggest bone in the body can heal in about 6-12 weeks, but people with TMS have it for absolute years. Why isn't the body healing? Or, is it something in the mind, that is keeping the body in pain, because the mind is what needs healed.

Not sure how this correlates but it just came to me, so I have to share.
I used to go to dances Friday nights to of course do what men do, meet women and flirt etc. etc. There was one woman who regularly asked me to dance with her, but she was different than most others. She was very stiff to move. She was not what you would call graceful or flexible. Moving around on the dance floor with her was like moving a wooden doll. Her personality was pretty much the same way. She was very strict in her beliefs about men and very strict in her lifestyle, sex etc. etc. Her attitude in life was totally reflected in her body. She was a robot on the dance floor, with out much if any flexibility and the same with her personality.
She was also one who complained quit e a bit about her bad back or her shoulders. I do not feel her physical body was making her mind inflexible. I feel it was her mind creating not only her strict stolid outlook on life, but was also reflected in her body composition, tension she carried and thus her pain as well.
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:19 am

This may help some understand how or why it is a bit of a hurdle to get over, as it was for me and can be responsible for getting "stuck" so to speak.

http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/TMS_Recovery_Program#Part_I

It seems structural abnormalities can play a role and or if a doctor sees a structural abnormality on your x-ray, relates the pain to that.
This is where Sarno's work, seemed to push past this when he would do all the different tests, to slowly get rid of problems or areas that he felt had nothing to do with the pain. ie: testing trigger points, foot drop etc. etc.
Trigger points for me, are usually always present around my shoulders & hips and I mean some bring water to my eyes when pushed on.
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:33 am

One thing I recognized about 2 months ago that really finally sunk in, was that I do spend a good bit of my mind in the future. Anticipating what will come next, or wanting to be done with a project started at work, or see things over with. At times, even inventing scenarios about what outcome "may" occur, should say X happen instead of Y.
I am not sure how it started, maybe when I was 4 a situation happened to make me want to get ahead in time or not be in that present moment since it was scary or painful. The belief is that by the age of 7, we are having our personalities shaped and the sub conscious mind creates a good bit of how we react to things. Later on in life learning and ingraining things, is done by repetitive actions. Over and over again with something like tying your shoe or driving a car. You do not have to think about it.
Well, anxiety/fear/anger works that way. We can wonder why we react a specific way if someone cuts us off in traffic. It is not a thought as much as it is a reaction.
We blurt out in us what we carry in us. If you squeeze a lemon you get lemon juice, because that is what is inside. If you squeeze a person and anger and fear comes out, that is what we are carrying. (I think Wayne Dyer said something like that)
SO why is that important? Well, by repetitive action of catching yourself when you boil, and moving into a different thought pattern, you change the reaction from hate or anger to, oh well, that poor guy feels as thought he has to get ahead of all of us. Maybe he is just having a bad day!? Or maybe he just got fired from his job!?

I know this sounds retarded, but believe me, I know some of you reading, might be able to get over some of your pains, by just redirecting your thinking towards less old learned actions.
I did not want to necessarily get very psychological or metaphysical, (I am not much about sitting under a tree 1/2 nude contemplating my role life) but most of the info/runs I take towards feeling pain free, also speak about slowing the mind down, or getting closer/redirecting back to living more present moment.
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby stevein7 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:59 am

I think it possible that a stress materialises as body pain.
We are always tired, pissed off, hungry because of the misery of our situation, acknwledged, understood or not.
Some try to escape as individuals, lifestyles, cults, ideologies.
Others accept it and harden the fuck up.
Alienation is 'a thing'. You can't get away.
That shit future is coming. Maybe there are better things long term, but for now, it only gets worse. It won't go away. We are social beings. No man is an island.
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:34 am

stevein7 wrote:I think it possible that a stress materialises as body pain.
We are always tired, pissed off, hungry because of the misery of our situation, acknwledged, understood or not.


Which many will agree, then there seems to be the drop off point. When they do get pain, aside from the regular stomach ache or headache, (since they seem to leave us rather quickly, unless one may be stricken with regular migraines) we do not associate the pain in the low back, hip, neck, shoulder or knee, with anger. Especially if the pain comes on when we are doing something that might seem to trigger it. Like lifting weights or sleeping wrong so they say. We still can't seem to move from it being a physical malady. This is what TMS is all about.
I often think that since I am a pretty physical guy and equate my work and some joys to being really physical, it is hard to get past believing that back pain is not really physical, but an entity of anger, that as a thought, gets shuffled and stored in my hip.
Many times I would feel better or get some relief in almost an instant, just by completely believing there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with me in the area, that is however feeling this physical pain, in that same area!
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Jughead » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:35 am

Your mind is largely an illusion. Your "self" is largely an illusion. This illusion is analogous to the picture on an old TV. The image you see never actually exists in the universe outside of your head. The human vison-brain complex can only see things so fast. If you had a super high speed camera it would "see" the raster, flyback pulse, etc. Add in the fact that the tube shows dots and not a whole image, and what actually exists (outside of yourself) is a meaningless jumble of colors turning on and off. Your mind makes sense of the picture.

The same is true of your experience. You consciously or otherwise assign value to things. You construct a picture of who you are based on many inputs and your current "mind"' 's perception of those inputs. Silly example: Last winter I was really mad at a really rude guy. I was determined to avoid him. So far, so good, except I pretty much bad vibed whoever was in the vicinity of his trailer everytime I went by. Not meaning to, I was just thinking, "that guy . . .". Why was I acting this way? I now see that I was sleep deprived, more even than I realized, and thus overreacted to things and did not think clearly. Is this my self? Or was it a byproduct of influences?

Your sense of your self can be called your identity. We are attached to our identity. This has both positive and negative consequences. One place it gets us into needless suffering is when we experience pain. When I had back spasms in 2014, it became a feedback loop: The more I hurt, the more tense I got. The more tense I got, the more the muscles tightened up, and the more it hurt. It took me 30 minutes to get out of the shower so I could call 911. Once I knew help was on the way the pain subsided a little. I told them on the phone that I could not walk, which was true at the time. Once they arrived the pain subsided some more and I was able to walk. Was I faking? No, I really was experiencing that much pain BUT once I knew relief was at hand the pain lessened. We are all doing this, all the time. It is only in extremis that we generally see it.

This phenomenon writ large is our experience -- part input, part interpretation. We get attached to our interpretations for many reasons. One that does not serve us is habit. Both my mom and her brother were in the habit of being angry before anything bad happened. They created bad experiences. The good and bad news is, you can condition yourself. Two quick examples -- a friend I worked with started imitating, for my amusement, a co-worker who complained all the time when a customer came in. He started this as a joke. Over time, as he did this, he actually got disgruntled when he had to work. He primed himself to feel this way (not even meaning to). Here's another: I have long struggled with energy. I have acquired the habit of being tired. Thus, on days when I have slept well I do things to exhaust myself, I think just because I am in the habit of being tired.

We are all limited by physics. We are also limited by physiology but I now believe that our control goes far beyond where we usually think it does. We also create much more of our experience than is usually recognized.
It is easier to act yourself into a new way of thinking, than it is to think yourself into a new way of acting. -- Millard Fuller
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Jughead » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:40 am

Snake Plisken wrote: Many times I would feel better or get some relief in almost an instant, just by completely believing there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with me in the area, that is however feeling this physical pain, in that same area!


I think we all instinctively believe this. When someone goes down, either in sports or life, the question is, "Are you OK?". We are encouraging that person to be OK. It often works.
It is easier to act yourself into a new way of thinking, than it is to think yourself into a new way of acting. -- Millard Fuller
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:57 am

Jughead wrote:Your mind is largely an illusion. Your "self" is largely an illusion. This illusion is analogous to the picture on an old TV. The image you see never actually exists in the universe outside of your head. The human vison-brain complex can only see things so fast. If you had a super high speed camera it would "see" the raster, flyback pulse, etc. Add in the fact that the tube shows dots and not a whole image, and what actually exists (outside of yourself) is a meaningless jumble of colors turning on and off. Your mind makes sense of the picture.



Yes, as I said I did not really want to get too deeply into the mind and how it creates us, but I guess it is in a way unavoidable. If one starts to swim across the river, it is hard to turn back, or get dumber again. Ignorance really is bliss IMO. Tolle would probably tell me, I think way to damn much...!
What I am trying to say is that I wanted to keep my own posts pretty simple for people suffering from back, knee neck or shoulder pain. (I want this for myself anyway) not to necessarily reach a higher level of wisdom or enlightenment, but to keep on lifting. Plain and simple. I just love to do it and feel rather lost without it.

Your sense of your self can be called your identity. We are attached to our identity. This has both positive and negative consequences. One place it gets us into needless suffering is when we experience pain. When I had back spasms in 2014, it became a feedback loop: The more I hurt, the more tense I got. The more tense I got, the more the muscles tightened up, and the more it hurt. It took me 30 minutes to get out of the shower so I could call 911. Once I knew help was on the way the pain subsided a little. I told them on the phone that I could not walk, which was true at the time. Once they arrived the pain subsided some more and I was able to walk. Was I faking? No, I really was experiencing that much pain BUT once I knew relief was at hand the pain lessened. We are all doing this, all the time. It is only in extremis that we generally see it.


This makes total sense to me, but I had to ask myself, was my back injured? Or just having cramps from thoughts or stress stored in my body that I might be burying?

This phenomenon writ large is our experience -- part input, part interpretation. We get attached to our interpretations for many reasons. One that does not serve us is habit. Both my mom and her brother were in the habit of being angry before anything bad happened. They created bad experiences. The good and bad news is, you can condition yourself. Two quick examples -- a friend I worked with started imitating, for my amusement, a co-worker who complained all the time when a customer came in. He started this as a joke. Over time, as he did this, he actually got disgruntled when he had to work. He primed himself to feel this way (not even meaning to). Here's another: I have long struggled with energy. I have acquired the habit of being tired. Thus, on days when I have slept well I do things to exhaust myself, I think just because I am in the habit of being tired.


So as mentioned earlier, it seems to ring of repetition or practicing something over and over. Even if it may be sub conscious, we learn it and act it and slowly become it.

I guess my question still remains, if one feels pain in the back or shoulders, how will you think, or how will you respond to it? Physically or emotionally?
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:19 am

This may also be a pretty big factor (for me). The more I have done and continue to do this and get relief (all the while still lifting and being active), the harder it gets for me to believe in conventional remedies.
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:06 am

PierreSuter wrote:Pain is an odd thing and no doubt has mental and emotional aspects to it. I know personally that stress and anxiety can literally become a pain in the neck (or back or wherever). I also think that if the pain is coming from a body part that's physically damaged, you need to repair it to get well regardless of your mind state.


Okay, but this question comes to mind...
How do I determine whether it is anxiety or an actual injury,,,
If as Sarno states in his book, a good bit of the diagnosis for back problems are actually TMS from his experience, then how does one get away from the physical diagnosis and does a doctor tell you if it is anxiety, even if he may see a slight abnormality?
Should drs start doing a great deal more testing (like Sarno) before a diagnosis?
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby randygillett » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:17 am

Snake Plisken wrote: I totally get this and believe me, I have thought this more than a few times. But what if it works in reverse?


I'm sure it goes both ways. Real physical damage can cause emotional pain (depression) and real emotional damage can cause physical pain. I don't think it would be going too far out on a limb to believe that the woman at the dance had suffered emotional trauma. Her stiffness was a subconscious protective bracing against further emotional assault from the outside world (I guess it works as that must be off-putting to potential suitors. I give her credit for trying to fight it by going to the dance in the first place). Every socially awkward person can attest to this. I know I can. The same phenomena happens to me the day prior to physical competition. My conscious mind thinks it's cool and collected but my body has a mind of its own and is going a bit haywire. It becomes depressed and goes into shutdown mode which results in low energy output and digestive issues. But my body is just conserving it's energy in preparation for battle. When it's go-time it never fails to begin firing on all cylinders. Some part of my brain is causing this all to happen because I'm pretty sure my muscles, endocrine and digestive systems don't know whats coming.

I have found that the best way to deal with pain, whether it be physical or emotional, is to embrace it for the good thing that it really is. It's telling you that you are doing something wrong. Having this attitude towards it allows me to avoid going on the negative, self-perpetuating cycle that has so often had me wallowing in misery as if I enjoyed it.
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby stevein7 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:21 am

So, as is more or less the norm these days, I wake up, take a piss, hobble downstairs.
I am 900 years old and the dogs must be wndering if I am going to make it to the door so they can take a piss. Yet 6 days out of 7 there will be at least a solid hour of hard physical effort, not counting work and life's tasks.
Is the pain 'real', am I going to fall to pieces way before I should? Am I being an old fool stubbornly sticking out a physical war on several fronts, or am I succesfully delaying the decay and wisely defending my castle against the hoardes of time...
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby PierreSuter » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:50 pm

Snake Plisken wrote:
PierreSuter wrote:Pain is an odd thing and no doubt has mental and emotional aspects to it. I know personally that stress and anxiety can literally become a pain in the neck (or back or wherever). I also think that if the pain is coming from a body part that's physically damaged, you need to repair it to get well regardless of your mind state.


Okay, but this question comes to mind...
How do I determine whether it is anxiety or an actual injury,,,
If as Sarno states in his book, a good bit of the diagnosis for back problems are actually TMS from his experience, then how does one get away from the physical diagnosis and does a doctor tell you if it is anxiety, even if he may see a slight abnormality?
Should drs start doing a great deal more testing (like Sarno) before a diagnosis?


That's a tough question to answer. By the way our medical community works (their training and financial structure both) of course they're going to focus on the physical. When most people go to the doc for back pain, they expect to go home with pain meds and muscle relaxers and wouldn't take kindly to being sent home empty handed. Maybe attitudes will change one day. The fact that muscle relaxers help pain should tell everyone that the mind can play a big part. In China and some other countries I do think they take a more holistic approach to medicine, and you can find holistic docs here in the US though they don't get much credibility.

I'm right there with Randy that the best way to deal with pain is to be grateful it's there to tell you something is wrong and needs to change. It's an alarm system and we'd be screwed without it. I'll take it a step further at the risk of trekking into crazy land... sometimes I feel like my subconscious is smarter than my conscious mind and causes pain or minor tweaks/injuries to get me to stop lifting before I seriously hurt myself.

Another example to back up some of what you were saying earlier... I've noticed a lot of times when I have an injury that I'm fighting through week after week, that the moment I decide I'm going to take a week off I immediately start to feel some pain relief, sometimes dramatically so! How much of that pain was purely mental?

I think all of my serious pains have a pretty clear physical cause, but I'm sure my mind influences things, and I wouldn't be surprised if some people have mental pains that manifest in the body in a serious way. People with fibromyalgia and the like come to mind and should probably be looking in that direction.
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby stevein7 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:18 am

I think, however, that there can be too much of the 'power of the mind'.
Yes, will, intent, desire, motivation are big factors, but the real physical world is primary.
Maybe some of you relate to objectivism. I am not an objectivist but I am a materialist, not an idealist.
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:36 am

PierreSuter wrote:That's a tough question to answer. By the way our medical community works (their training and financial structure both) of course they're going to focus on the physical. When most people go to the doc for back pain, they expect to go home with pain meds and muscle relaxers and wouldn't take kindly to being sent home empty handed. Maybe attitudes will change one day. The fact that muscle relaxers help pain should tell everyone that the mind can play a big part.


Right, and this makes sense to me because doctors are trained that way. Back when DeCarte was putting out medical information, the times were to think mind and body, so the philosophy was to keep the 2 separated. That and the fact that there is no way to put the mind under a microscope and point to a specific malady that is causing pain, becomes tricky for the medical community I am sure.
I know with the onslaught of the internet and that the world has become more unified as far as travel and cultures bleeding together, people are looking for more or newer/older ways to find relief besides the typical regimens that are rooted in old experimental surgeries etc.

I'm right there with Randy that the best way to deal with pain is to be grateful it's there to tell you something is wrong and needs to change. It's an alarm system and we'd be screwed without it. I'll take it a step further at the risk of trekking into crazy land... sometimes I feel like my subconscious is smarter than my conscious mind and causes pain or minor tweaks/injuries to get me to stop lifting before I seriously hurt myself.


I am on board with this as well, but I wonder if the pain is emotional and to get my mind off the emotional pain, my body uses this TMS strategy. In fact I must say that has been my experience with what I feel have been the structural pains like low back, shoulder and neck pain, that seem to linger ans go on and on.

I think all of my serious pains have a pretty clear physical cause, but I'm sure my mind influences things, and I wouldn't be surprised if some people have mental pains that manifest in the body in a serious way.


I guess this may be where we differ. I on the other hand feel that my most "serious pains", that had my cringing and unable to tie my shoes or wash my feet or pick up a pencil, were pretty much all related to anxiety. Now I understand that breaking a leg would have you in serious pain, but I am talking about serious pain coming from almost nowhere, waking up with it or, when I was lifting, a niggle after a day or so, eventually turned into horrible pain weeks later. For me, apparently nothing was really broken.
My actual physical pains seem to be rather dull and muted. Any of my TMS pains involved burning, numbness, weakness, sharp breath taking pains, nagging tooth ache like pains. They also wavered on occasion in intensity. My physical pains were very consistent and as I said not impossible to bare or even an aspirin would dull the pain.


People with fibromyalgia and the like come to mind and should probably be looking in that direction.


I know a few close people who have pains that go on and on. They live on painkillers to some extent. I saw myself as one of these people, if I didn't find a cure. I am not one to take pain pills, I probably have taken 1 bottle of pills over a 20-25 year period. I think of some of these people and their emotional lives are pretty bad. They seem to be controlled by their pain. Which is sad, but they are obviously doing the best they can. It seems to get really hard to tell them their problem is not a physical one, especially if their doctor is treating them for it being a physical one.

It has been about 25 years now that I quit chiropractic. I went from that to trigger points stuff (Bonnie Prudden) and that did not ease all of my pain either. ART was a new one I tried after chiropractic about 15-20 years ago. Nothing has given me the results that TMS teachings/theory has. Every one and a while I still grab my J bar to stick it to a trigger point and yell a good bit while I move and stretch, but I must say, it seems only temporary or the pain comes back later as bad. As I apply the teachings I learned from Sarno and Hueftle I feel 80%-90% better. I feel I found the proper relief (at least for myself) and certainly hope that anyone reading this can keep an open mind and find their path to pain free living or lifting.
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Jughead » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:04 am

Snake Plisken wrote: think of some of these people and their emotional lives are pretty bad. They seem to be controlled by their pain. Which is sad, but they are obviously doing the best they can. It seems to get really hard to tell them their problem is not a physical one, especially if their doctor is treating them for it being a physical one.



It seems to me that a lot of people feed and water their ill-ness. It gives them an excuse to not focus on their messed up minds and lives.
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:32 am

stevein7 wrote:I think, however, that there can be too much of the 'power of the mind'.


I really don't know anything with more power Steve.
It is only the power that came from men's minds, that me and you are able to communicate over vast distances in seconds.
It might not work by simple thinking to make changes, but "simple consciousness" seems to be a fact of actually creating our universe.
Bohr and later Bell rather proved quantum physics are real. (see the double slit experiment)
Einstein, after working for 28 years on his unified field theory, could not salvage materialism.

Apparently, the universe cannot exist without our conception or observation of it. It is tuned to 1 then a decimal point followed by 123 zeros. Not many physicists or scientists feels that is an accident or randomness. (trying to prove multi universes runs into much the same trouble. There does not seem to be anything in the universe that is a frivolity, or just here to amuse us. Every atom is here for a reason apparently.
I am not a religious or godly person, but the argument for some kind of infinite intelligence is very compelling.
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Jughead » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:43 am

We do not know how close to bedrock reality we are, or how accurate our perception is. The scary thing is, a lot of experts don't know either. Robert Laughlin said that the forces we refer to as fundamental are in fact likely to be emergent properties of deeper phenomena. The point being, we sometimes see reality as it is (the car won't go any farther because it's out of gas), sometimes we have a reasonable approximation (gravity), and sometimes we really don't know. It is frustrating to not know so we often latch on to any explanation (religion).

How this relates to pain is, we do have a signal saying something is wrong, but sometimes the solution is not where we are looking. And what we do find is sometimes not the right problem, as in the one that will help us.
It is easier to act yourself into a new way of thinking, than it is to think yourself into a new way of acting. -- Millard Fuller
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby stevein7 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:36 am

Placebo, glucosamine, exercise
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37429050
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:22 am

I think there are quite a few people who only get so far with Sarno's work, because he does not go into the detail behind the pain as much as Monte Hueftle did in his book. Sarno's claim is to think psychological when you are aware of the pain. But certain times just thinking psychologically, did not alleviate the pain, because the real root to a good bit of it (according to Hueftle) is the tension one holds or stores in the body's larger structures, from a regular constant learned behavior of suppressing feelings and or coping with everything that makes us uneasy. Because the mind wants to be rid of the suffering then just passes or a better word, "buries" the anger or fear in the physical body to draw attention away from the painful thoughts. The true help for me came when I realized I sub-consciously rushed a good bit to get to the next moment in life. As I slowly over time, brought to light the constant impatience and anxiety to the conscious level and then made an effort to stop doing it, the pain very much let up a great deal. Mobility could get better in minutes. If the next day however had me again thinking my old way of "gotta get this done", then my pain was again worse. It goes away, from changing the sub conscious patterns I learned and called my personality as say a type A person.
If one wants to change from being a type A, or nervous person, it is best to start to recognize that you are, and at every turn practice pulling back and being in the moment and calm, no matter what is happening to you.



John Barnes Myofascial Release has a large emotional pain component. He describes the involuntary shaking you mention as a 'freeze response' thaw. It's commonly seen in nature. It can help with physical and emotional pain. There's a lot of self treatment you can do with myofascial release. It might be a good complement to what you're already doing.


I am glad people/therapists are finding new ways to treat people. At least they are also looking at the mind/body connection, instead of keeping the 2 separate.
When my dad was dying, a doctor called us into his office and explained that, drugs do not do it all. The body is responsible for much of the healing that takes place and the mind is a huge factor in what chemicals and or creations of wellness go on for the body. It is just hard for people to see that they are not separate, when we get treated like the mind is just a place for simple thought. It is anything but simple.
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:44 am

louburr wrote:
How do you know that specifically?
Well it is triggered by physical things. Putting 360 lbs on my back and squatting causes back pain. 200 pounds and higher reps doesn't cause pain. Benching causes my shoulder pain. If I ignore it my shoulder pops out of the socket. Same with pullovers. If it is stress it just shows up for no reason either in my hip , lower back or mid back. It doesn't go away unless I address the stress by accepting it as niether good or bad just as is, changing the things I can if any, having compassion for people in the same situation.


And I get that and I myself have suffered from what I can only call some kind of muscle strain from say deadlifting. It was a pretty dull ache in an area and was gone or much less intense in about 72 hours.
When I have been deadlifting and feel a sharp or jagged pain that is like a spasm, I get the idea it is my TMS, as I have had this happen and within minutes it is quieted down (like a cramp would react) and I have actually resumed the workout.
I also wonder about it when I wake up and have supposedly "slept wrong" I am not keen on that one.

Also If go to the doctor and if they dont see a physical cause of my pain it is stress. At this point I can just meditate and find the stress. Even if I can't pinpoint it I know I'm off and it will come to me usually in the night. I go to the doctor. Im not an old school tough guy. Sometimes going to the doctor doesn't work. In 2010 I started losing my ability to control my legs and it got worse throughout the year. I basically could swing my right leg. I could stand on it but not control it. My left leg was bad but not as bad. I walked with a cane. I fell a lot. They did not see anything abnormal other than normal aging. That lead to me going to therapy. I had lots of stress but I grew up with lots of stress and pretty much found more stress in my adult life if I did not have enough since that was all I knew and where I felt alive. I kept telling the therapist, I'm fucked up no doubt and I need to be here but my fucken problem is real. She spoke to my back doctor who sent me for another MRI of my lower back. The guy giving me the mri saw some noise higher up and called the doctor to tell him I need an MRI of my upper back, It looked like I had tumors in my spinal cord. It turned out to be a blood vessel in my spinal cord pushing on my cord. It was real. They just missed it. Surgery fixed it.


I think this is where it gets dicey for many people. A doctor showing me something on an xray will have a pretty big impact on whether or not I am going to think it is physical. Sarno states that he has seen stuff that doctors would relate pain too, but from his experience it is iffy. I know people are going to trust their doctor over one guys theories, especially when they cannot be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. This was of course and can remain at times my struggle and most likely many peoples struggle with the TMS diagnosis. It is rather imperative that you give up the notion it is anything physical. Lifters are very physically oriented people. They (or at least myself) think quite physically a good bit of my waking hours. So to pass that malady thinking and think it is psychological is rather tough, which is where the road block comes in from my experience as it keeps you focused on the body.
Glad they found your problem and you got relief. Some are not so lucky.



Lou wrote:
So do you think any of that causes you any stress, or worry, or the word I have used in the thread, "tension"?
Yes , Everyday. It is always there at some level. Not the big snakes stuff, the other stuff. I grew up with a bipolar father and a mentally ill and alcoholic mother. When you live in that environment as a child you never know when and why the painful stuff will happen. The lack of consistency is devastating. If I got beat everyday or for a reason It might have been easier mentally, though physically not so much. Never knowing if love , hate or nothing was a round the corner and what triggered either of those 3 leaves you on fragile ground, I could literally tell by how the key sounded in the door if I need to run and hide or sit tight and watch TV. To this day shove a key in a front door quickly and I stress. I was blessed with Grandparent who lived nearby and friends whose parent knew what the deal was and took me in as needed. They were a model for the home I will build for my family. So growing up in an environment where there is no control or safety you either mimic it or you try to control everything so it stays out of your adult life. I try to control everything which is impossible so bam tension. Giving my kids a safe consistent loving and positive home where they could be nurtured and grow into decent adults healed me and gave me meaning greater purpose. Funny my mom told me that was the most important thing I could do in my life. So she knew but could not execute. I'm not sure what my purpose will be going forward since they are grown. So more lack of control , more tension.


Okay, well it sounds like you have found a way toward healing the stress some. If it works for yu, I say run with it.


Wow I'm sure that was more than you were expecting so yes it causes tension. I deal with it by catching it and reframing it. It took over a year to get to the point of feeling it and not reacting. I was in my late 30's at that point I'm 54 now. 24 years of it and you get good at it. It doesn't go away though. Feel it , recognize it , reframe it. or Feel it , know it is not rational, write it down, address it later. Sometimes I need to do breathing exercises to the count of 5 in and 5 out First breath - Breath in the pain, breath out the relief or healing. second breath - breath in the pain for someone you know feeling the same, Breath out the relief or healing for them. third breath breath in the pain for everybody in the world feeling the same pain, Breath out the relief or healing for the world. repeat 3 times.


Well, it does not surprise me and I think "men especially" in our society are conditioned to not show feelings or be tough and buck up. Swallow that pain etc. etc.. This is what I feel creates the inner tension that needs to get out. Burying things (especially right now thinking, because as Hueftle makes a point, going thru a lot of his childhood did not have a great effect on his pain, since the pain was coming from tension he was generating in his present moments. This is what I found with my present thinking as well. Lots of same old same old over and over.

Other times I just realize I dont need to control anything anymore, control is an illusion and I just need to enjoy the ride good or bad.


Right, control is holding onto and holding can create tension. Not bending like a reed in the wind has one staying rigid.
That is a good attitude to live by Lou. I wish I would have started in my teens looking at life that way.[/quote]
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:56 am

This may also be somewhat relative...
Moving along the lines of what Bruce Lipton has commented about the sub-conscious mind, and does it think very basic.
I might say yes, from experiences.
Recently, my mom who is elderly was asked by my sister to move out to the midwest and live with her and her great grandchildren. She was kinda excited at first, but as the time neared for her to up root from a house and neighborhood and town, she has lived in for her entire 94 years, started to have second thoughts. What she developed physically was sores and swelling of her feet. When she decided not to go, it went away as mysteriously as it came.
Now, the word "move" here, applied to her leaving town and most likely never coming back. Beings that we "move" around space using our "2 feet", it would appear her sub-conscious mind heard "move" and simply related movement with feet, not necessarily another area or state and the fear attached emotionally. Did the mind (sub consciously) hearing fear of moving, set in motion a malady to effect her feet, since that would be very basic thinking or the mind relating it to the body?

How does a simple thought become an actual molecule?
If I have a thought that creates tension, and the tension makes my stomach react with dumping acid into it, then at what point does thinking, set up a physical chain of events, that has a chemical released into the blood stream, or nervous system, that has an actual physical reaction seen on an xray or show up on a chemical or blood test?
Thinking is much more powerful than we give credit.
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby RyanH » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:37 pm

Regarding our thoughts, I found the train station analogy in this article very useful when my mind goes to those places.

https://www.michaelneill.org/cfts1040/

Imagine the mind is like a train station. There are trains leaving all the time to any destination you can think of. Some trains will take you up into the mountains of ecstasy; others will take you down into the depths of despair. Some leave the station quickly but then lose steam and drop you off in the middle of nowhere; others are slow to start but over time take you exactly where you want to go, even if you didn’t know where that was when you first got on board.

At times, when there weren’t many trains leaving the station, it would be relatively easy to hop aboard the trains taking you somewhere interesting and avoid the ones taking you down a rabbit hole. But the busier the train station gets, the harder it is to navigate, and you might even find yourself hopping from train to train, feeling incredibly active and busy but never really getting anywhere in the process.

Now, imagine there was a foolproof way to instantly know whether a particular train of thought was taking you somewhere good. You wouldn’t have to ride the train all the way to its destination to find out where it was headed; you could simply hop off at the next station and wait for another train to come along.

This is the role of fear in the human system:

Whenever you feel fear (or despair, or hopelessness, or righteous anger, or any one of a host of variations on the theme), it’s the design of the system letting you know where that train of thought is heading. It’s telling you to be still – to hop off that train and wait for a new stream of thinking to come along. It’s not telling you anything about the world or even about your capability – it’s simply telling you there’s nothing good waiting for you at the end of this particular train of thought.

It’s like pain – you feel a little bit of pain when you accidentally put your hand too close to a flame to prevent you from feeling a lot of pain (and maybe even doing yourself some damage) if you carry on towards the fire. The discomfort of fear is there to warn you of the larger discomfort (and risk of doing yourself some damage) if you carry on thinking the way you’re thinking.
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Re: This may help some of you...

Postby Snake Plisken » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:16 am

Okay, update on this thread. Sorry it has taken so long, but I had been "stuck", as they say in the TMS jargon, still not letting in the fact that, my hip situation is pretty much entirely all tension related. No, I do admit my hip flexibility still needs work, but I have always had that problem and absolutely without any pain attached to them until recently. Only if I stretched past a given point of old flexibility, would I have a dull stretching ache back then. Not debilitating aching and sciatic nerve, or piriformis issues down the leg, a good bit of left knee and some ankle.
The tension storing however, has been hanging on quite awhile (maybe 2 years).
So, what has changed...?
Put simply, my thinking. No, not where you walk around trying to be positive, while saying to yourself, it is getting better, it is going away, I am happy even though I am in pain.
It is much more the fact, that you discover and make aware to yourself, exactly how much you worry or are angry or examining each and every moment to see what you are thinking, that is driving you to be more tense. It does not just go away overnight or an easing (there is easing but it wanes as your worries do) like something healing, since there is nothing in my body to really heal. It is my thinking that either allows the tension to build and get stored or relaxes and dissipates. This is much more on the line with thinking psychologically pretty much constantly. It gets tricky and or hard to do this re-examining to yourself all the time, especially when one is in pain, since that is how it works, (the pain wants to keep you totally distracted from the real issues of how much you constantly feel and store tension. Personally, I have been a tense person (type A, overachiever, people pleaser) my entire life, so being tense, without me actually realizing, felt like a normal state or "my" normal state. Another example, since I do not think this can be reiterated enough, is how much I look at the next moment/situation coming along, or how much I catch myself saying... Oh I gotta remember to call the body shop, I gotta get stuff out of the freezer for tonight, I gotta call the dentist for next week, wonder if I will have a good lift session tomorrow... and it goes on constantly. I almost am never really sitting and feeling my ass on a chair with 99% of my attention focused on my ass on the chair. I'm on the chair but my mind is into next week or next hour or, you get the idea. One simple trick was brushing my teeth, became a situation of just brushing and feeling the brush on my teeth, while I asked myself where are you and do you feel the brush??? When my thoughts tried to wane away, wonder what I am getting back on taxes or, I should call that woman? I realized and pulled them back to my teeth. Sounds stupid I know, but believe me, you start to realize how much you are not in the moment or how much your applying anxiety to your daily thinking.
Amazing how much small build of anxiety this causes to get stored over time. We as humans seem to store it in structural areas. hips, upper back, knees etc. Maybe that is another reason some of us have problems shitting, no matter how good we eat. I digress.

I started to take time to really notice and catch myself when I was moving out of the focus of the task at hand. Be it just sitting, or doing work, or listening to a radio show. I think one of the terms is to practice being a "uni-tasker", not a multi tasker. Be focused on one thing and doing that one thing in that moment and then in the next moments or minutes, be doing what you are supposed to be doing in that time.
That is some of the differences being made.
Next is, when I find myself getting pissed off at a coworker or some shit situation, stop and deep breathe into it and really feel what I am thinking all the way to the end. Let the energy dissipate out, until it becomes flat and I almost chuckle. This is not easy either. It is easy to read this shit, but to put it to work every day, or try and change old personality traits that seem to make you who you are, is pretty much a step by step and or 2 steps forward 1 step back at times, procedure. You can however, teach an old dog new tricks, it just might take a little bit more attention...!

Maybe I should just shut up and let some of you do some research. I hope you can find the same relief and positive effects I have, without drugs operations, or limiting my active physical lifestyle. Try this...
http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Archive_of_M ... om_updates

Cheers and I hope this helps some of you the way it has helped me.
What if doing the Hokey Pokey and then turning yourself around, is really what it's all about???
Snake Plisken
I heard you were dead.
 
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