Juicers that don't look like it.

Look, I'm not going to lie. There's a guy in here, "Lockout", that makes this one of the least productive and most boring places to talk training on the internet, and no one can be bothered to ban him. Buyer beware. Arguments about minutiae. Ad hominems. Appeals to authority. Training #1.

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Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby lockout » Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:02 pm

Hey guys. I'm just throwing this out there.

I never would have suspected this before. I was naive to the subject matter of steroids because I just wasn't interested so I never read about it. Enough years lifting got me to realize that the top athletes surely are using. But what's even more surprising is that there actually is gym goers who use who an experienced natural lifter might never suspect it.

How can that be? It is what it is. I've researched the subject matter recently. And when I read people's reported results for their first time cycles, they always end up with numbers similar to what took me years to accomplish naturally. Bench mid 200's-300, squat mid 300's, and deadlift mid 400's give or take. I accomplished that naturally and it took me years of brutal hard work in order to achieve it. But it only took them a few years natural plus a 3 month steroid cycle.

There are also some guys with phenomenal genetics who'd achieve that a lot faster naturally and beyond. I've actually got a friend who deadlifted 330 lbs the first time he wrapped his hands around the bar and tried. If a guy like that worked hard naturally, he'd possibly make some experienced lifters wonder.

I'm just throwing it out there. I'm not bragging. And I'm not poking fun. I just find it rather interesting. And I'm quite surprised. This means that of all the smaller lifters whom you'd never suspect to have taken steroids, some of them actually do or have. Not all of course, but some for sure.

I'm not saying there is a right way or a wrong way. If someone needed immediate results for a career or maybe they have muscle dysmorphia, I can see why they'd want to use PED's. But for me personally, I'm quite happy with the way I've done it over the last 25 years because I learned how to do things the hardest way. And overall, I've been quite happy with my strength, but it's tough to keep the fat off. But fat is just diet.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby stevein7 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:04 am

What came to mind was how we have a skewered view of strength, squat 300, bench 200plus,deadlift 400 means strong to most.
First time I deadlifted I pulled 330 exacly, after warm up.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby lockout » Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:40 pm

I don't know what you mean.

What I do know is some people have better genetics than others. But you can overcome that with brutal hard work. It's quite clear that a natural guy can get just the same results as the steroid guy depending on the situation. I'm convinced that the steroid guys that only got the same numbers as me, there's no way under the sun that they've worked as hard as me to get it.

It's really been my experience that in order to really get everything you can out of your genetics, you've got to practically torture yourself in the gym. There really is no other way around it. When I did that my strength was through the roof, bench 320 raw, squat 420, deadlift 455. And I know I could have done better. But it sucks and it's really really hard. And when I stopped working as hard, my numbers dropped. What a surprise! Yet a 20 year old kid can go on the juice and achieve that in 3 months.

It actually makes me feel stupid. Am I the stupid one? Why would I do it the hard way when there's an easier way?

Maybe you're right. That's what the kids think these days. They want to do their first cycle when they can only bench 200 and still can't squat or deadlift over 300. They don't want to work hard.

I'm not bashing the steroid scene. It is what it is. Take a guy who's already done his hard work, put him on a cycle, and he'll be hitting some super freaky numbers. Combine good genetics with that and you've you've got the best in the world. Nothing truly comes without hard work.

Those kids that cycle too early? It shouldn't be a surprise when they lose everything only to walk out with less muscle than their natural genetic potential in the long run. It's simply due to lack of consistency.

I knew a guy who did that. He was small, took drugs and blew up quick, and then got skinny again. And he asked me how I managed to stay big all these years. My reply was simple. Stay consistent over the years. Never stop.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby PierreSuter » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:06 pm

To me, juice is just one factor and not really worth obsessing about. My idea of strong but achievable for most people is 300 400 500 in the PL's. Some people bust ass for 10 years to hit those numbers, and others get there much quicker and easier whether it be due to genetic gifts, drugs, excellent coaching, or any number of other factors. Good diet, training conditions, low stress, etc. all help.

Even juicing itself isn't such a black and white issue... some respond more than others and some take a lot more stuff than others. I guess some like to obsess over "juicers" because it's an edge that they can buy and is viewed as the easy way out?
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby lockout » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:00 pm

Pier,
In the USA I think the media has more to do with it and the fact that it's illegal. The media says it's bad and it's illegal, so all the top athletes lie about it and keep it a big secret. Then they go on to sell bogus supplements that don't work and scam people. It's no wonder some people wanting to stay natural end up feeling jaded after 10+ years in the game, wasting money on supplements that don't work, and not getting the results they expected.

Some natural juice haters might be just jealous and use it as an excuse. Maybe they're the ones who don't want to work hard?

But for me? Now? I just wanted to research the subject matter. I read many articles and a book on it and watched videos. I wondered if there's a benefit and I'm still wondering. Can I benefit off it? Some say don't do it unless you're prepared to do it for life, because you lose everything you gained when you come off. I still haven't been able to figure out if that's 100% true or not or how long it takes.

I don't want to get huge. And I like my nuts. So maybe it isn't for me.

I did try low dose clomid for a few months to see if it'd boost my natural T. It works and great for at least a mid-life restart. It makes your nuts bigger. But I don't like it. It fucks with your hormones and that fucks with your emotions. I can't fathom the roller coaster that juicers put themselves on. Especially competitive bodybuilders. Having to take several drugs or more at once plus side affects, needles, trying to get sources, and dodging the law? Fuck that!!! I wouldn't wish that sentence on anyone.

But I'm learning and that's good. When I found out that I had numbers similar or better give or take to a lot of beginner juicers, it definitely was encouraging. It means I don't need it. And remembering what I had to achieve it, it just reminds me that I can do it again if I'm willing to work hard. Now days I'm willing to work hard, but I also want to train smarter to avoid injuries.

And hell yeah, learning about that certainly does make it tempting to want to try. If you love lifting you also love gaining strength. So of course that part would be fun! But responsibly thinking, I know I don't need to be carrying an extra 30 lbs on my frame. I just don't need it.

I don't have any hard feelings anymore finding out about the supplement scams. But I do think it's better to be educated. Some of those meds even can help with medical and health purposes. So I think the haters just hate because they've been manipulated, lied to, and scammed.

On the positive side, in the USA the big thing is they don't want kids to have that stuff. And I agree with that 100%.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby PierreSuter » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:20 am

That all makes sense. BTW, I'm in the USA too and have been for 41 of my 43 years.

To your original point of juicers who don't look like juicers, I would say that's true for most of them. There are tons of HS football players on the stuff that you would never know looking at them.

Those people who are so jacked that they're "obviously on the juice" are more often than not a product of genetics, hard work, AND juice. Yet for all their talent and hard work they receive the scorn from the general public "oh he's on STEROIDS!" while the guy next to them could be on just as much stuff but fly under the radar due to shitty genetics or laziness. There's some irony to that.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby lockout » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:45 pm

Pier,
Good point. Coming from a life time natural who's been ignorant, it actually is amazing what you learn once you actually open up your eyes and look over to see what's on the other side. I used to think that guys on my same level weren't on. But now I'm learning a lot more.

Some guys have no choice but to fly under the radar. Police, guys in tested sports, and guys in positions where they fear of criticism. When I was competing, my biggest fear was guys at my office jobs assuming I was a user and criticizing me. That's just one of the reasons why I didn't use. Yet if I was offered at 18 years old, I probably would have tried just like how most teenagers try weed. I'm kind of glad nobody offered it to me at the age.

Anyways, there's drugs that are good for flying under the radar. Choose a fast acting fast clearing substance, do short cycles only at low-moderate doses so you don't gain too much too fast, and you're good to go. You can go beyond your genetic potential that way or reach it faster, all while avoiding suspect and passing the drug test. Win win.

One side note is there are some jerk offs and stupid idiots who ruin it for everyone else. Some moron gives it to a kid, the kid ends up with emotional problems and kills himself. That actually happened.

Also, you've got retarded dick heads that take it just so they can go around bullying people that are half their size. I can't tell you how many stories I've heard and seen where steroid bouncers gained up on someone just for being a bit too drunk and beat them up and broke their arms or legs. Yet I don't know a single person who's gotten hurt that bad in an ordinary street fight. It's abuse. They get away with it in America. But I've been in countries where behavior like that would surely earn you a knife in the back or a bullet in the head no matter how big and tough you think you are.

Also. Cops? While most are good, some are no good and actually abusive. A lot of them take steroids these days due to pressure to stay in shape, and some can't handle the aggression. The times from 30 years ago where everyone used to make fun of them and say they only like coffee and donuts is long in the past. About 15 years ago a cop pulled me over and was reaming me out just for burning a light in the middle of the night when there was zero traffic. The aggression in him was scary! I'm talking about a guy with a gun who's supposed to be there to protect the public, and he looks like he's going to beat the fucking shit out of me. He wasn't too big, but all I could guess about his attitude was that it didn't make sense and he had to be on steroids.

I also had a guy who claimed to be a doctor threaten to beat me up at the gym. Over nothing!!!

Most of the elite powerlifters I knew didn't have such problems. They were good friends. And they took the aggression out on the weights.

Some people are just plain old dick heads and they can't handle it. So they shouldn't be taking shit like that.

I don't understand why they do it the way they do in the USA. If they toughened up on the black market but made it easier to get it legally through a doctor even for athletic purposes, it'd be better for everyone. You'd have less retards getting their hands on it. And it'd be easier to get legit products with doctors supervision.

Personally I hate going to the doctor. But a situation like that would be better than the situation they have now. Just throwing the thought out there.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby stevein7 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:31 am

I just watched a film called Eddie-Strongman, about Britain's Eddie Hall. In the film someone said he thought it was possible to be world's strongest man without performance enhancing drugs. I thought about that. Is it possible? If pressed, I would bet not. But I am not 100% sure.

I suppose a lot of strongmen ''don't look like it''. Many look like fat bastards.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby randygillett » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:38 am

I just saw that as well. People who believe that are the ones who believe steroids don't exist wherever there is testing despite the fact that plenty of athletes have been busted for PEDs yet never failed a test.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby Fanny Baws » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:17 am

I've no idea how much steroids add or how prevalent they are at the top end of sports beyond what I read here, but I've met a few guys who couldn't lift fuck all and whose appearance wouldn't stand out stripped naked who were on steroids.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby stevein7 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:04 am

Lance Armstrong didn't look incredible, but what he could do was pretty outstanding.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby PierreSuter » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:51 pm

Saw the Eddie Hall doc as well. Thought they did a good job handling the sticky topic of drugs... they basically presented the two opposing viewpoints and no discussion with Eddie himself so the viewers are left to draw their own conclusions.

Regarding whether anyone can win WSM drug free... I don't think anyone has done it yet, but would hate to say it's impossible. Would take a real freak/mutant though. It's possible Mark Henry has never done the stuff and he was probably strong and athletic enough to win. Or maybe someone like Andre the Giant with the right training.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby Jughead » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:34 pm

PierreSuter wrote: Or maybe someone like Andre the Giant with the right training.


Would have liked to see Andre the Giant, trained up, as a running back.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby Snake Plisken » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:20 am

PierreSuter wrote:To me, juice is just one factor and not really worth obsessing about. My idea of strong but achievable for most people is 300 400 500 in the PL's. Some people bust ass for 10 years to hit those numbers, and others get there much quicker and easier whether it be due to genetic gifts, drugs, excellent coaching, or any number of other factors. Good diet, training conditions, low stress, etc. all help.

Even juicing itself isn't such a black and white issue... some respond more than others and some take a lot more stuff than others. I guess some like to obsess over "juicers" because it's an edge that they can buy and is viewed as the easy way out?



Good post. Early years in my lifting, I probably did obsess, or compared, or tried to accomplish, what drug users did. Truthfully, after I got fine with it, or no longer cared at all which guys or whether they did them, my lifting seemed to get better, or settled, or at least my attitude towards my own abilities or strengths got better or more balanced. I chased what I was good at and excelled better at, instead of trying to be Eddie Coan.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby stevein7 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:33 am

Part of the learning curve I suppose. It's the agony of choice. When you choose X, you lose Y. If you had gone down the roid route, you would have had a different experience. That is lost. And vice versa. Part of the modern condition.
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Re: Juicers that don't look like it.

Postby lockout » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:07 am

Interesting stuff. I'm finding out these days that there's guys who'll take that stuff even though they don't know jack about working out or diet and they don't know jack about what they are taking. For example, I met a really really fat guy the other day who said he wanted to take dianabol and winstrol together because he has too much water weight. Of course I was thinking, "what the fuck"? All a guy like that really needs is to lift and diet really really hard for a couple of years. But...he'll probably just take the drugs anyways, not workout, and eat a bunch of pizza and ice cream and chase it down with beer and liquor. How about a hand of applause?

So, yeah I guess it's quite clear there are guys who do it who you'd never expect.

But I also think it's interesting stuff to learn about. It's a whole other aspect of fitness that never gets talked about. Historically the guys who did it never talked about it or admitted it. And the guys who didn't do it would be left in the dark. Let's say for example if it was 1/3 diet, 1/3 training, and 1/3 PED's. That means all the guys who were left in the dark and following the "experts" (cough cough, I mean liars) were missing out on 33% of the big picture. And that's A LOT!!!

Dorian Yates explained it in an interview simply that it's like a 3 leg table. Remove any one leg and the whole table falls down.

My 25 year experience in the game taught me that you can get big and strong and get abs without PED's. But there is a limit and you'll never know what your own limits are until you've gotten to the point where it's like beating a dead horse. Sometimes in that sense ignorance is bliss. People can theorize all they want, but you can't get more real than retard strength.

But PED's? They can take one there A LOT faster, and beyond. And they can even wake that horse up from the dead and make him into super frankenhorse. LOL!!! That's just reality. Anyone who says different is either naive or full of shit.

So where did all the juice hate get started? I'm not sure. Nobody knew about it initially. But I hear back in the 1980's it was really talked bad about. Maybe because of guys who were after profit like Joe Weider? In a recent interview, Robby Robinson said it was Joe Weider who actually took him to the doctor for his first juice shots. But all those same guys back in the day would smile for the cameras and say don't take drugs take Joes protein shakes instead. That's kind of fucked up, all except for the part of keeping it from kids.

And now days? Long time wannabe life time natty's might be pissed. But not me. Knowledge is power. So who gives a fuck? If you have the knowledge and understand stuff, at least then you can make an educated decision either way.
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