I thought it was me.

Look, I'm not going to lie. There's a guy in here, "Lockout", that makes this one of the least productive and most boring places to talk training on the internet, and no one can be bothered to ban him. Buyer beware. Arguments about minutiae. Ad hominems. Appeals to authority. Training #1.

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I thought it was me.

Postby stevein7 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:37 pm

"
I am very old. At this writing I'm 51, and in the grand scheme othings that's not very old, I know. But yesterday I did a relativelyintense deadlift workout, and I feel more like 71 just sitting heretyping, and about 81 when I stand up to get coffee. This is in stark contrast to my previous existence as a young man, one who couldhave done the workout I did last night as back-off sets after the actualtraining. This is because I have accumulated lots of injuries, I don'tsleep well, and — since I don't sleep well, or possibly as a cause onot sleeping well — I don't recover very fast. This affects my trainingschedule, my "progress," and my very purpose for training. In short, Iam a masters lifter, and maybe you are too. Or maybe you will be, iyou're as boneheaded, tenacious, and afraid as I am. Masters lifters are obviously different from their younger hard-training counterparts. We have accumulated injuries that have to beconsidered when training is programmed. And more importantly, our response to training is blunted by our age: the stress/adaptationrelationship is a function of the hormonal milieu, and old guys havean old-guys milieu. I am literally afraid to quit training. It is tempting sometimes,like right now, to settle in to a routine that doesn't make me hurt oneway or another most of the time. But I have had some limitedexperience with layoffs, and I don't do well without training, physically or psychologically. After even a couple of weeks my back starts to hurt in the absence of some type of work; it has apparentlyadapted to the abuse, as a heroin addict has to the drug. My knees feel better when I squat: I actually think they keep the bone spurs ground


down. I have grown fond of high-volume chin-ups, and I'm pretty surethat they are helping me stave off rotator cuff surgery. I don't like the way I feel without the work, and I don't think I'dlike the way I would feel about myself without the work. Most guysmy age — the ones at my class reunion a couple of years ago, for instance — are just physical piles of crap, looking many years older than even me. I am still just vain enough that this is motivational. Iam scared enough of looking like this, and feeling like this, that I dida deadlift workout last night that hurts me today, beyond the normalsoreness that a younger, less-beat-up guy would experience. So I suppose I'll continue to train until some horrible accident prevents me from be able to. I suspect that there are many others likeme, because I know at least a couple personally."


think like him: so what if it hurts? We've been training so long thatthe idea of not training is worse than the reality of hurting. No, this isnot especially intelligent, but it is the way we think.

Rippetoe, reading my mind.
‘’Either the proletarian revolution is victorious or capitalist barbarism will destroy humanity”.
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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby GTheo » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:59 pm

At 54, I can completely relate to that.

Add in for me that I enjoy competing in the track & field hammer and weight throws, and that requires proper training too. Some of that proper training leaves me sore as fuck.
"...and the way to lower a weight after you have cleaned it is to fucking lower it you pussy." -- MLL

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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby randygillett » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:36 pm

I’m going to be 58 in March and I feel better physically if I don’t train heavy. Problem is, the better I feel physically the worse I feel mentally when I don’t push my physical limits. Walking and lifting light weights, as great as they feel, just aren’t going to cut it. I need the physical challenge and just as much I need the mental challenge of figuring out how to get my old body to perform. I still have dreams of stepping on the powerlifting platform as a 60 year-old and putting up decent lifts. There has to be a way.
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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby Jughead » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:45 pm

I feel crappy both physically and psychologically without training. The only time I feel whole, or as close to it as I ever get, is when I'm working out regularly. Also, I have spent a lot of time in the last few years being around people who are 50+ who don't train and they look horrible and are a drag to be around.

However, when I push it too hard I'm wiped out, and am way less able to function in that state than even at 40 (50 now). It takes so much out of me that I can't function correctly -- doing seemingly simple things is beyond me at those times. It's also hard to know how much I can really do. There is an elusive sweet spot where I feel more energetic, physically and mentally, but if I go too hard or too long I'm cooked. I don't know how to reliably find that zone.

Lastly, I used to like to push myself hard, but now it takes so much out of me that the Conan the Barbarian feeling that I used to get is now a "holy shit I have to never do that again" feeling.
Cardio geeks would say to just do cardio with some light weights in the mix but that just isn't satisfying, nor is it ideal physically. My $.02 is that a medium amount of 70% effort is what might work. Plus drugz of course.
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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby stevein7 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:53 am

Training is like heating up lead. The dull grey metal turns into a bright fluid silver. For a time, everything flows, there is a drug like high to it. Throw in the caffeine and that is more the case.
I like to do a short workout everyday.
I don't think I am as far gone as the original description. I can see it coming, but I am not there yet.
I think that the cardio and the bodyweight/kbell stuff adds a lot to the big picture. As does healthy food choices.
But the other stuff is where the interest is. Big lifts, big eating.
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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby GTheo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:55 am

Jughead wrote:My $.02 is that a medium amount of 70% effort is what might work.


This is where I've been for the past few months. It has lead to very good competition results during my indoor season.
"...and the way to lower a weight after you have cleaned it is to fucking lower it you pussy." -- MLL

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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby GTheo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:59 am

stevein7 wrote:As does healthy food choices.


Another important key. The older I get, the more poor dietary choices impact me negatively. I've just started feeling normal in the past week after my Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Year's 6 week binge. 10-15 years ago, I feel good 2-3 days later. Those days are gone.
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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby PierreSuter » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:32 am

I've gone way downhill in the past 10 years, from 34 to 44, in terms of being able to train heavy. But I still have goals of hitting respectable numbers and exceeding a masters record or two.

I can't accept the idea of not training at least semi-hard, and my body can't handle much heavy training, so I typically stick with 60-75% and do either low rep speed work or higher reps. The weight on the bar isn't going to impress anyone, but no one really cares anyway. I've also been experimenting with isometrics lately which allows me to strain with max effort without grinding away my joints. So far so good.
"Constant dripping hollows out a stone."

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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby Laconic Lifter » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:08 pm

53
Common theme

Here's my ?'s -

1. According to Starting Strength lingo / ideology, "old" people basically revert to novices and only need linear progression. But, while I don't consider myself advanced, I can sure as hell do more in a workout than I can ever recover from before losing any supercompensation and making any progress. i.e. high volume, high intensity, high anything and I actually go backward or just get injured. I do not however have the attention span or to be honest give enough of a shit to do some 3 dimensional program etc. So I lift, I hurt, I'm grumpy, I prehab/rehab, I wait a few days. I go back for more. So not sure how an "old" person is supposed to make progress - I guess that's why the records and qualifying totals keep going down with age - duh.

2. Starting Strength sticks to 5's and sets across and LP for old people and warns against the hazards of too much volume and says light weights don't work - BUT, their prophet - no not Rip, but Bill Starr preached that oldsters should transition to higher rep work (so obviously lighter weight) and even train every day with light weight high rep routines.
These articles are in the archives - see for yourself: http://powerandbulk.me/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=56846
So WHY does Starting Strength NEVER EVER talk about Bill Starr recommending this and just keep making old people do 5's as heavy as possible? I know, they have old man Texas method and the Barbell Prescription Sullivan book throws out a few other routines but same theme. Even a recent article posted about why light weights / high reps suck for oldsters.

Pendlay also talked about his older lifters (world class masters) not tolerating any squats at all and only doing "the lifts" and maybe a little conditioning.

I'm going back to olympic lifts and just the lifts, no rack no squats.
All in one - strength, power, flexibility, quickness, balance, coordination and conditioning/GPP.
A lift every 2 minutes. Get sweaty and out of breath.
70-85%
Joe Mills style 20/20 but usually only 15/15 - rarely get anywhere near a max.
AND alternate snatch one day / clean and jerk another - most days, shooting for 3 each / week.
That alone is a 30 minute workout each day after warmups.
Keep the ticker tocking the lungs working, the joints moving.

See you at the 2045 National Masters 80 year old session with the 2.5 kg plates.
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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby randygillett » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:50 pm

My new plan for geezer greatness is to combine all of the things that were successful in the past while avoiding all of the many pitfalls. Instead of lifting more for psychological satisfaction like I did in my last pursuit of strength I’m going back to a once per week, fairly minimalist routine. I’m going to add a JPS twist by alternating squats and deadlifts each week. Instead of doing one set to failure every workout I’m going to rotate that with a week of 8 sets of 3 (one set per minute) and a week of 8 sets of 8 (one set per minute). This way I’ll only be doing a all-out max effort for each lift once every six weeks. The other two set/rep schemes will provide me with a much needed relief and allow me to avoid doing the same workout twice in a row while at the same time providing a new and beneficial stress. Also, on the max effort days I’m going to focus more on higher reps, going lower only when I feel the need for change.

The program will look like this:
Wk1) squat - one all-out set, bench press - one all-set
Wk2) deadlift - one all-out set, db flye/press - one all-out set
Wk3) squat - 8x3, bench press - 8x3
Wk4) deadlift - 8x3, db flye/press - 3x8
Wk5) squat - 8x8, bench press - 8x8
Wk6) deadlift - 8x8, db flye/press - 3x8

I’ll swap for look-a-like lifts as needed. The only accessory work I’ll do is purely therapeutic - one set of db rows with 70lbs and one set each of overhead press, curls and triceps extensions with 25lb dumbbells.

I may fail miserably (again) but if nothing else the weekly beat down will make squandering what’s left of my life in front of the television more appealing and less guilt-inducing. Either way, I win :-)
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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby Laconic Lifter » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:33 pm

Oldsters should follow Clint -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqemKKo7RUc
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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby lockout » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:42 am

Heavy sets of 1-3 work the best for strength. But it beats your body into the dirt. HIT works fine for muscle mass without all the aches and pains, but it isn't the best for strength. At least that's my experience, regardless of age.

The only solution I've thought of is just alternating the two. One month blocks would be a good example.

And if you're really crazy, try to throw in a few strongman events. Work them hard, but not HARD. One run away S good.
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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby randygillett » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:34 am

lockout wrote:
The only solution I've thought of is just alternating the two. One month blocks would be a good example.

More thinking out loud. The problem with this for me is it’s hard followed by hard with no relief in sight until nature shuts me down one way or another. Looking back on my training experiences I believe that I should have incorporated more downtime into my programs. I think a good analogy and model to use is to do what the full time steroid users do with their dosing — blast and cruise. The question then becomes what does the cruise consist of. Again looking back, the answer for me is something that flies below the radar of my endocrine and nervous systems — staying below a certain intensity threshold so as not to cause alarm.

I’m going to slightly modify my plan above by replacing the “8x3” with another “8x8” and I’m going to modify the 8x8 to “x” amount of volume with 50% of my 10-rep max on squats and 75% of my 10-rep max for bench. The volume may very well end up being 8 sets of 8 but I’m going to remove the governing and stress-inducing clock in favor of set percentages. I’ll save “8x3” for when I want to peak.

This would give me a two week blast followed by a four week cruise for off-season training. Depending on results I can adjust those durations accordingly. For peaking I can add on a little longer singular blast phase. That’s the theory anyway.
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Re: I thought it was me.

Postby Laconic Lifter » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:39 pm

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